Episode 86: Daring For All of Us

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 The Topic

Ali Edwards joins us to continue our discussion on the book Daring Greatly and how it relates to creativity and our favorite hobby, digital scrapbooking.  We recommend listening to our first discussion Episode 81: Creativity and Daring Greatly before listening to this one.

Joining the Discussion:

Ali Edwards (Designer Digitals and Big Picture Classes)
Peppermint Granberg
Katie Nelson

Steph

From the Mail:

From the Show:

We recommend you get the book and join us on our journey:

Listen to our first discussion Episode 81: Creativity and Daring Greatly

 

Picks:

Ali: Epson Picturemate Show
Peppermint: Google Keep
Katie: Tap A Talk
Steph: Photo JoJo

 

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36 Responses to Episode 86: Daring For All of Us

  1. Candy says:

    I am listening now, but had to pause the show to comment.

    I think what is most difficult to me about online communication is not the anonymity of it, but the fact that as I comment on something I tend to come from a place of “I know this person.” When the reality is that while I may “know” you through your writing on a blog, your scrapbook pages, your podcast, etc. you couldn’t pick me out of a line-up. That breeds a familiarity that isn’t deserved sometimes, and I think leads to some of the situations that you guys were talking about especially in regard to criticism.

    • Steph says:

      These are some really good thoughts Candy. I’m still processing them, but I think, for the most part, familiarity people might have with us because they listen to the show (or read our sites), doesn’t cultivate meanness.

      I have customers that listen to the show and read the site daily and they will email me if I’ve made a mistake somewhere or if my site seems slow, or down, or anything else. Because of the familiarity they have with me, they know that I would want to know. They are also kind about it. There have been other times when I’ve been criticized by a customer or a reader and it was mean.

      My hope would be that as people get to know us, they would be more likely to be nice to us…lol. ;)

  2. Kami says:

    I’m about half-way through the show but I wanted to add to the discussion about anonymous comments because I have some pretty strong feelings about it and this book has really helped me grow as a person specifically regarding this topic. I’ve really struggled with trying to figure out why anonymous comments and criticisms bother me so much and not just when I’m directly involved but when I see it anywhere, whether I know the person being targeted or not. I finally realized that I feel like anonymous criticisms or comments stem from a desire to skirt accountability. For one reason or another, the commenter doesn’t want to be held accountable for what they want to say. But if what someone is saying is something they don’t want to be held accountable for, it’s probably best left unsaid. Or if it does need to be said, it should be said in a way where the commenter is comfortable being held accountable for what they have said and dealing with the repercussions of their comments, whatever they may be. Like you guys talked about in the show, the prerequisite to being heard is to be in the arena and that means at the very least, putting your name behind your opinion. If you can’t stand behind what you’re saying, you are automatically delegitimizing what you have to say. Nobody can take your opinion seriously if it’s not even important enough to you that you are willing to own it.

    On top of that, anonymous comments prevent the person on the receiving end of the comment an opportunity to either explain themselves or their actions or to have a constructive conversation about it. It’s really just one person unloading their own fears and frustrations on to another person unfairly and it’s really difficult for anything positive to come out of such a negative place. It almost feels like bullying.

    For myself once I really got to the core of why I was feeling the way I was feeling, it made it easier for me to brush off (or try to brush off) anonymous criticisms because I can see they really aren’t meant to be taken seriously.

    I was surprised to see Brene talking about this because I hadn’t realized how wide-spread the issue was. And I think that by realizing it’s a real issue, it kind of validated my feelings about it. I think I always felt silly for being so upset over this trivial little thing, but I realized it’s not trivial and it’s not silly to be upset about it. In fact through most of this book I’ve found myself thinking “I thought I was the only one who felt that way!!!” and to have an entire book dedicated to these feelings that I thought were isolated to just myself has really kind of been liberating!!

    Thank you guys for daring greatly and for sharing with us your thoughts on all of these difficult topics!!

  3. Steph says:

    I agree Kami! I wasn’t aware that this issue was one that plagues our society as a whole. I thought it was just our hobby or female dominated industries. But, I learned from Brene’s book and research that it is our culture that is creating and accepting shame driven communication anonymously or not.

    Looking at this part of your comment:
    It’s really just one person unloading their own fears and frustrations on to another person unfairly and it’s really difficult for anything positive to come out of such a negative place. It almost feels like bullying.

    It IS bullying! It is fighting shame with shame just like Brene said. It is trying to make others hurt as much as you’ve been hurt.

    Really, it all makes sense and it IS so freeing to find out that it’s not just scrapbooking that has this issue and, like you said, not just ME that feels this way.

  4. carrie a. says:

    Great show so far, but I had to pause and comment. :)

    On anonymity and being mean: Having a son with Aspberger’s, the things you are talking about are things we talk about with our son everyday. It also reminds me of the lessons from his social skills class. (Why that kinda class isn’t part of a kid’s education is beyond me.) It’s not an easy thing to teach any kid in this day and age…

    We have three things we are focusing on currently:

    If you have to say “no offense” (or something similar) what are saying is probably hurtful, so don’t say it.

    The second is a little more abstract, but it boils down to not everyone deserving your story (aka vulnerability has to be earned). My son often very open in the hopes of finding that kindred-spirit-BFF, but often him being vulnerable backfires.

    The third is to only share your stuff, from your perspective– so no gossiping, no being anyone’s messenger, and no he-said she-said whatsoever because it hurts everyone.

    As Ali said, being empathetic and kind is the undercurrent to all this.

    • Allie says:

      Carrie, I loved your comment about your son opening himself up and wanting that kindred spirit, BFF relationship, and getting burned too often. That was 100% me as a child, and it really hurt to be “burned” so often because I was opening myself up. I loved that you said “not everyone deserves your story” because it’s SO true! It took me a long time to realize that– I was a junior in college, at least– but when I did, it opened me up to some of the best friendships I’ve ever experienced– because I made them “earn” it, so to speak. I don’t think this has made a closed off person–which is what I’m always afraid of– but instead, I’ve started to be much more selective about what I share… and it’s made me a happier person overall.

  5. Leah says:

    This is one of my favorite shows, and I’ve been listening almost since the beginning. That’s all :)

  6. Allie says:

    I’m not done, but I just wanted to say that I was bobbing my head along when Peppermint said that she cries as her “flight/fight” response. If I’m angry or frustrated, the tears just start flowing… which makes me seem even more vulnerable. I loved that Steph said “it’s good to cry.” because sometimes you really need to hear that! :)

    Loving this show! I bought the audio book to listen to, but can’t get through it as easy as these shows. Probably because I like Ali’s voice reading passages better than the book narrator! :)

  7. Amy says:

    This was a great show! Shame is a difficult subject to talk about. I’m not talking to anyone about mine, it is difficult just to think about and recognize it within myself. Your chemistry as a group is inspirational – the way you have come together to discuss it in such an honest, compassionate and professional way. Thank you!

  8. Kim Shimer says:

    I came across this new app from Disney and thought I would share. It is called “story

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/personal/2013/05/08/tech-now-new-disney-app-story/2140805/

  9. Penny says:

    Great show. I’ve been slowly getting through the book. What I suddenly understood better today is that I very often want to comment in the blogs that I follow and have done it a little more often lately, but that even though my comments are anonymous I struggle just to type the words out because I’m afraid I will come off as a doofus…that what I have to say might be perceived as unimportant (but I’m okay with that now).
    I’ve always been impressed with how well you guys pull together such an enjoyable hour of discussion each week but now I want to tell you how much I appreciate what it must take for you guys to pull it off.
    And I love the sound of the word serpentining ;)

  10. Courtney says:

    So, this is a weird question. I just drove across the country (MA-UT) and listened to the Digi Show for most of it. One of Peppermint’s picks or just a tool in one of the many episodes I listened to was a thing that would find your newsletter subscriptions in your email and let you bulk unsubscribe from them and also truncate them into one email. Steph said she’d used a service that just did the unsubscribe part. Can anyone lead me to the name of the service or just which episode this was?

    I loved having the Digi Show to listen to!

  11. mrshobbes says:

    I finished the book during a recent vacation I had, and I will just say that it has rocketed to one of my BEST books of all time. I am a volunteer life coach, and I’ve read A LOT of self-help books. While the title (and sub-title) of this book may sound self-helpy, it ISN’T a self-help book. It’s so so so much more. For the first time, I got very solid explanations of what “vulnerability,” “perfectionism,” and more mean. Explanations that resonated deeply not in my head but my heart.

    I cried a lot while I was reading this book. There is just SO much it’s given me that I cannot contain it in a simple comment here. But I am very happy you girls are taking the time to discuss it. So I’ll just give my Top Three WOWZA moments from this book:

    1. I AM NOT ALONE. I’ve been struggling with a lot of stuff in my head. I will be the first to say I am the poster girl for a lot of self-hatred. Oh, if I could verbalize all the yelling I do to myself, it could flatten a city. But Brene sharing about herself and her data in the book really drove home the point that I’m not alone in my struggles or my pain or my insecurities. It is, however, REALLY EASY to believe the opposite, because every day on social media I am bombarded by people who seem to have it together and (in my mind) like to flaunt it in my face.

    2. Struggling with Perfectionism. EVERY single thing Brene said about perfectionism is spot-on about ME. So much so that I had to put the book down often to glance quickly around if people were noticing how my face would heat up. For the first time I had an accurate picture of perfectionism and I feel I truly understand what it is now, so I can catch myself when I fall into it. And nowhere is it more prevalent (to me, at least) than on social media. Don’t get me wrong, I cheer when friends share happy news. But I also feel closest to them when they share the times they struggle, too. Yet knowing this doesn’t stop my reluctance to do the same! Brene said it best here: “We love seeing raw truth and openness in other people, but we’re afraid to let them see it in us. We’re afraid that our truth isn’t enough–that what we have to offer isn’t enough without the bells and whistles, without editing, and impressing.” AND “Vulnerability is courage in you and inadequacy in me. I’m drawn to your vulnerability but repelled by mine.”

    It’s something I am still struggling with. I cannot tell you how often I can traipse around social media looking for evidence of my not being enough.

    3. In connection with that, it’s the intolerance for vulnerability. I completely agree with what you girls shared about this. That much of being vulnerable feels like admitting defeat or weakness. That being in the arena raises such a sh!t-storm of emotions (FEAR! FEAR! FEAR!) and that attacking or shaming is just easier to do. Then I read Brene’s words: “It starts to make sense that we dismiss vulnerability as weakness only when we realize that we’ve confused ‘feeling’ with ‘failing’ and ‘emotions’ with ‘liabilities.’” And it just clicked for me. Like Peppermint, I cry in moments of extreme anger and frustration. Those moments have always been moments of shame for me. I am thinking “Why can’t I be less emo?!” But I’ve since grown to understand that tears are a release of surplus emotion for me. I usually feel a little better after crying it out. And it’s happening in baby steps, but I feel like I am gradually accepting that hey, that’s just the way I am built, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

    Anonymous comments make me both angry and sad. It’s disheartening to realize that people would rather sound cool or indulge in their need to be right (and I admit I have done the same!) rather than coming from a place of empathy or compassion.

    So sorry for the novel of a comment! I have so much more that I learned from the book, but I may end up just blogging the rest. Certainly it’s inspired me so much (art journal pages among other things), but more than that, it’s comforted and dissipated so much of my self-hate. I can’t wait until you gals discuss this again!

    Lastly, I just want to say thank you, Steph, Katie, and Peppermint, for always choosing to be vulnerable in recording and posting The Digishow. You make my scrapping (and dish-washing!) more enjoyable and always make me laugh. Please know how much you gals are appreciated! :)

    • Peppermint says:

      I was reminded by a friend (who listens to the show) that just a few years ago I never EVER admitted that I cried, and now I seem to throw it out into casual conversation without a second thought. And she’s right. I’m not sure exactly when I stopped feeling as though I had to hide the fact that crying is my go-to place when I’m overwhelmed, I’m sure parenting has a lot to do with it. I still don’t like for people to SEE me cry, though – so on some level I’m still worried that it somehow makes me seem weaker in someone else’s eyes. Stoicism is a big thing for me, I guess.

  12. mrshobbes says:

    Oh crap. Forgot to link to this. When I first read Brene’s definitions of perfection, I remembered this blog post: http://www.danoah.com/2010/09/disease-called-perfection.html

  13. mrshobbes says:

    Ak, sorry to keep commenting piecemeal. I had just gotten the notification about the “new” Flickr and wanted to ask Katie how she’ll weigh in. While I am personally happy about the 1TB storage, I don’t really like the interface. I find it a little clunky. Also, I just read about their new “upgrades” and find it bizarre to pay $50 just to take out ads :/ http://mashable.com/2013/05/20/flickr-pro-changes/

    • Melissa says:

      Yes, I agree. Not a fan of the new interface. As a Flickr affiliate they turned off the referral program a month or two ago, saying they want to focus on mobile.

      I guess it looks better on a small screen now.

      Can’t wait to hear Katie’s take on this

  14. Leslie says:

    Complete non sequitur , but thought this was interesting. The creator of the *.gif file format weighs in on pronunciation

    http://mashable.com/2013/05/21/jif-not-gifs-pronunciation-steve-wilhite/?utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer&utm_content=buffer11f46

  15. Tiffany says:

    I haven’t read the book yet, but lately I’ve been thinking a lot about forgiveness, and I think that forgiveness relates to this issue of shame, or why we can be so hard on each other. I originally was thinking about why people can get caught up putting all their energy into their work while neglecting their family. I think it comes down to the belief that work (or your boss) is less forgiving than your family is: you can accept the risk of neglecting your family because your family loves you and will forgive you, but your work won’t forgive you.

    I think our world is continuously becoming less forgiving. In my opinion, that’s kind of what “political correctness” is all about. We assume that people won’t forgive our mistakes, so we have to be very diligent not to make any, or not to offend anyone. And if we do make a mistake, we must be very apologetic, otherwise we won’t earn forgiveness. For a long time I’ve thought how much easier life would be if we all just forgave each other more.

    Lately I’ve been thinking about these things in relation to the academic field, but I think it applies to creative fields too. A community that lacks forgiveness leaves little room for making mistakes. But mistakes are crucial! We learn from our mistakes, right? (Or at least we hope we do). In order to be creative, to take risks, to try new things, to learn, to grow, we need there to be room to make mistakes. And I think that forgiveness is the prerequisite for having room to make mistakes.

    • Sue says:

      Here here. You perfectly captured my thoughts on this subject. I found myself nodding my head throughout your response. Bravo.

    • Kami says:

      Tiff this is amazing! WOW! Definitely making me think!! Thank you so much!!

    • mrshobbes says:

      Tiff, I love your take on it! (Incidentally you are also one of my favorite scrappers!)

      I think that’s a big big reason for the intolerance for vulnerability. Being vulnerable means allowing yourself to show your imperfections (not necessarily to the public, but even yourself). Part of that I think is forgiving yourself for mistakes. But instead we are so hard on ourselves and yell at ourselves and thus do the same to people we perceive as having wronged us or being “less than” us. I couldn’t understand why sometimes I felt surrounded by idiots. Then I realized I wasn’t being compassionate towards myself, and thus, other people when they messed up.

      • Tiffany says:

        Thank you, ladies, for your feedback. I’m glad that others are thinking about forgiveness too. And Alexis, thank you so much for such a fine compliment! I tend to feel invisible, so the thought that me and my art could even be on someone else’s radar just about floored me. That really meant a lot to me.

        • mrshobbes says:

          OMG are you serious?! I’m subscribed to your blog! I first saw your awesome layouts in TLP so I’ve got your blog on my Feedly. You are most definitely NOT invisible :)

  16. Jaime Smith says:

    Peppermint – Did I hear an Archer reference in there?!?!?! I very rarely own up to loving that show, but myself and one of my co-workers watch it with our spouses and we quote it all the time. I’m a little embarassed to own up to it, but I figured I’d put it out there. That’s what we’re supposed to be doing, right? :)

    • Peppermint says:

      Was there? I tend to black out during the shows and go about life blissfully unaware of what I say. It wouldn’t surprise me. We’re huge Archer fans – and I’ll totally own up to it. Love that show! Almost everything that comes out of Tom’s mouth is an Archer quote. I think he’s watched every season 4 or 5 times now.

  17. Angie says:

    Just wanted to let Ali and Brene Brown fans know about the free course at http://www.Oprah.com/brenebrown. It’s art journaling and “The Gifts of Imperfection.” Awesome! And Did I mention FREE!

    • Amy says:

      It looks like it’s $69.99 unless I’m reading it incorrectly. I’m really interested in it but that might be out of my budget at this point after other classes I’ve recently purchased.